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Thu 15 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image19:26 Don't Use ExtJS» Pablotron: News

A couple of years ago I recommended YUI and Ext (formerly YUI-Ext). I've changed my mind. Don't use Ext at all. The Ext license has changed four times since its inception, and each time the license has become more restrictive.

History

Ext was originally created as an extension to YUI. It was BSD-licensed, just like YUI. YUI-Ext added several sorely-needed features to YUI. The most notable additions were a layout system, a Tree View widget and a Data Grid widget (YUI has since added each of these, although the YUI widgets are still less flexible than their Ext counterparts). Eventually support was added for jQuery and Prototype as well. The team dropped the "YUI-" prefix, and YUI-Ext became Ext.

Ext 1.0 was relicensed under the LGPL. Although switching from the BSD license to the LGPL is relatively innocuous, it is still significant because the LGPL is more restrictive than the BSD license.

Eventually the Ext team changed the license again. The new license was a custom license that granted conditional LGPL usage rights. Basically the LGPL usage clauses applied, but only if you weren't trying to develop a library or an Ext clone.

Confused? Yeah, me too. Here's the text from the old Ext "Open Source License":

Ext is also licensed under the terms of the Open Source LGPL 3.0 license. You may use our open source license if you:
  • Want to use Ext in an open source project that precludes using non-open source software
  • Plan to use Ext in a personal, educational or non-profit manner
  • Are using Ext in a commercial application that is not a software development library or toolkit, you will meet LGPL requirements and you do not wish to support the project

A lot of open source developers were understandably confused by this hybrid license. The biggest problem was that it wasn't clear whether this license was compatible with other Open Source licenses. It also wasn't clear whether Ext could be legally distributed with Open Source software, since the license only granted LGPL usage rights, and not LGPL distribution rights.

To address these complaints, the Ext team changed the license again: the latest version of Ext is licensed under the GPLv3. This latest change complicates things quite a bit for many users, as we'll see in the next section.

Problems

The GPL is far more restrictive than the BSD license and LGPL. It is rarely used for libraries, because the viral clause would effectively the library from being used for any non-GPL software. In fact, these problem were addressed over 16 years ago by creating the LGPL:

By 1990, it was becoming apparent that a less restrictive license would be strategically useful for some software libraries; when version 2 of the GPL (GPLv2) was released in June 1991, therefore, a second license - the Library General Public License (LGPL) was introduced at the same time and numbered with version 2 to show that both were complementary. The version numbers diverged in 1999 when version 2.1 of the LGPL was released, which renamed it the GNU Lesser General Public License to reflect its place in the GNU philosophy.

Who is affected by this change? In no particular order:

  • Extension Authors: Older Ext user extensions could be licensed as the author saw fit. This is no longer true for the latest version of Ext; new user extensions must be GPL-licensed, because the viral clause prohibits using Ext with non-GPL licenses.
  • Commercial Users: The previous licenses, even the questionable custom license, allowed Ext to be used in closed source commercial applications. This is no longer true for the latest version of Ext, because the viral clause prohibits using Ext with non-GPL commercial licenses.
  • Non-GPL Open Source Developers: The BSD and LGPL-licensed versions of Ext could be used with other non-GPL software. This is no longer true for the latest version of Ext, because the viral clause prohibits using Ext with non-GPL licenses.

Things get even murkier when you consider linking and distribution. Does generating a dynamic page count as linking to Ext? Does any public web application automatically count as distribution? What about applications which use Ext to and access a common APi, such as a SOAP endpoint or RSS feed?

These questions were posted in a thread about the license change on the ExtJS forums.
Here's how Jack Slocum, the primary Ext developer, responded:

If you are generating any markup or javascript code via the server in a page SPECIFICALLY designed for Ext, then that server code will have to be GPL as well.

For example:

  • Suppose you have an index.php that includes Ext JS. According to the FSF, in that case index.php would be also under GPL since it is using ext. Since it must be GPL, it's source must be distributed. Since it is GPL, the "viral" effect of GPL is now in effect and any thing that uses index.php (if anything) on the serverside would also fall under the GPL. (Note: Note this is a pretty gray area)
  • Suppose you are using server-side code to generate javascript that interacts with Ext JS. That code must also be GPL.

Like MySql and other GPL software the way to use GPL code without having to license under GPL is to not bundle or distribute the GPL code with your application. If you instead have the end user (developer?) download and install ext js on their own, they are then bound to the license and not you or your software.

For those seeking an FAQ, we have defined and explained some of the reasoning and license implications under these 2 pages:

http://extjs.com/products/license.php

http://extjs.com/company/dual.php

It's worth noting that the examples given at the beginning of this post are just my opinion and it is impossible for us to analyze everyone's usage and say whether or not someone "complies" with the GPL. That really is a task for an attorney or even someone with better knowledge of your application and how Ext JS is used.

In the end, we want Ext JS to be open source friendly and still have a good business model in place to grow. The old Ext License was not open source friendly and pretty much killed all options for use in open source projects. That wasn't our goal so we had to address it.

There are several problems with the statements above. The biggest one is that the original BSD license and subsequent LGPL license had none of this ambiguity.

In other words, the problem the Ext team is trying to fix is one they created themselves. If that wasn't bad enough, the solution actually hurts many Open Source developers far more than it helps.

In an attempt to clarify the situation for non-GPL Open Source developers, I posted several questions in the Ext license thread. I also created a post on Reddit about the license change and summarized my questions there:

As of page 8 of the thread on the license change I have yet to receive a response, simple or otherwise, to any of my comments:

There's this comment:

The new license prevents Open Source software that is using a license other than the GPL from using Ext. Applications which use popular Open Source licenses like the LGPL license, BSD license, MIT license, and the Artistic license would be required to either re-license under the GPL, carefully design their application to meet the requirements in your post, use an older LGPL-licensed version of Ext, or move to another library entirely.

And this one:

What about authors who which to provide their software under a license that is more permissive than the GPL, such as the MIT or BSD licenses?

And this one, which was directly in response to Jack Slocum, the primary author of ExtJS:

Hi Jack,

I can see how switching to a license without exceptions would make things simpler, but what about those of us who release Open Source software under non-GPL licenses such as the BSD, MIT, and Artistic licenses?

I've been an Ext user since its inception as YUI-Ext, but the fact that I cannot seem to get a straight answer to a simple question makes me wary and extremely skeptical.

John Resig, the author of jQuery and Processing.js, responded:

It's important to understand that OSS developers are not their target audience at all. I'm 100% certain that we'll never get a clear response. They're using 'open source' as a buzzword selling point to lure companies in, befuddle them with confusing viral licensing, and obligate them (through the obvious balking that the corporate lawyers will do) to get them to buy a full, corporate, license. It's very sneaky, quite disingenuous, and paints a bad picture for open source development as a whole.

It's been over three weeks since these this exchange on Reddit. None of my questions have been answered on the Ext license pages or in the 68-page license thread on the Ext forums.

Rationale

According to the Ext license page, Ext licensing is based on the principle of "Quid Pro Quo", or "something for something":

Dual Licensing is based on the principle of Quid Pro Quo - "something for something". In return for the advantages you realize from using an Ext product to create your application, we require that you do one of the following:

  • Contribute to the continued development of the product by purchasing commercial licenses from Ext. This option secures you the right to distribute your application under the license terms of your choice
  • Contribute to the Open Source community by placing your application under an Open Source license (e.g. GPL v3). This option secures all users the rights to obtain the application's full source code, modify it, and redistribute it.

The justification for using the GPLv3 instead of the LGPL is addressed on the Ext license FAQ page:

We considered once again releasing under straight LGPL but it was not an option as a business. We tried that with version 1.0 and found out quickly that it enabled others (e.g. large commercial entities) to take our work, wrap it up and sell it as their own. With no mention of us at all. We, as a business with a full time team of talented developers, can not exist under those circumstances. We would quickly become diluted and competing with ourselves.

The concern about others taking their work and selling it without attribution is particularly ironic, considering:

  • Ext only exists because a large corporation (Yahoo!) decided to share their hard work under a permissive open source license
  • Significant portions of Ext, including the Event handling code and reset.css, were copied wholesale from YUI
  • The Ext object system comes from YUI, which is based on Dean Edwards' JavaScript inheritance code
  • Many of the older Ext icons originally came from the Famfamfam Silk icon set

What do the projects above have in common? That's right, they are all in the public domain or available under extremely permissive Open Source licenses.

The Ext team is certainly entitled to license and sell their software any way they see fit. However, it is hypocritical and dishonest to complain about other people taking your work and selling it as their own when you take other peoples' work and either sell it as your own or relicense it under an extremely restrictive license.

It is tempting to attribute this entire fiasco to a simple misunderstanding on the part of Jack Slocum and the Ext team. Here's what I had to say on Reddit:

It is a bit disconcerting that Ext has such strong roots in existing Open Source software, and yet the project seems at best partially indifferent, and at worst, outright hostile to the Open Source community.

Unfortunately, according to John Resig, this isn't the first time that there have been problems with the Ext team:

We (the jQuery project) worked hard with them to try and fix bugs and add features for an ExtJS integration layer. They turned around and built their own, specialized, library (removing the need for any of our work) and then mutated the licensing into this bizzaro scheme that they have now. We can't, in good consciousness, even recommend their library anymore due to its very nature. On top of this they ended up hiring our lead evangelist to promote their work. I can't speak for everyone on the team but I feel quite frustrated and used.

They're providing a great disservice to the Open Source community in general. They consume with reckless abandon, it's impossible to even hope to borrow code from them, and they turn it all into a money-making machine. No aspect of that sits well with me.

Jack Slocum did respond to this comment on a separate blog. He also wrote a post on his blog. Neither adequately addresses John Ressig's main points or my questions from the Ext forums, so I won't bother quoting his mostly vacuous responses here.

Conclusion

To recap, the reasons I recommend against using Ext are:

  • A trend towards more restrictive licenses
  • Team is unwilling or unable to address licensing issues
  • Blatant disregard for other Open Source projects

Some suggestions for the Ext team:

  • Release Ext under the LGPLv3, BSD license, or GPLv3 with the special provision
  • Provide the Ext artwork and CSS under one of the licenses above, or one of the Creative Commons attribution licenses
  • Update the Ext license FAQ with detailed information about which Open Source licenses are compatible with Ext, including specific usage scenarios
  • Add a list of Open Source software which Ext has borrowed from to the license page and to the license information included in the download
  • Put older versions of Ext back on the download page

Finally, here are a list of Ext alternatives. None are as nice as Ext, but they are all available under permissive licenses and they each have an active and enthusiastic user community:

Comments are still broken at the moment. I've posted this article on Reddit, so feel free to comment there.


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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image10:25 EasingJS, a JavaScript Easing Library» Pablotron: News

I just released EasingJS 0.1.1, a port Robert Penner's ActionScript Easing library to JavaScript. EasingJS allows you to easily generate smooth and stylish animation or color transitions. For some examples, check out the test page.


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Wed 14 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image17:36 There Is No End To Democrats' Lust For Your Money» Joey Gibson's Blog

Drudge has a link to this revolting story which showcases, once again, how Democrats lust for your money. Dems in the House are proposing a "millionaire tax" on those evil, wicked, filthy "rich" people. It's only on those "rich" and not "working people," of course, since "rich" people don't actually, you know, work. The telling bit in the story is this

"What we're talking about is a one-half percent income tax surcharge on incomes above $1 million," said Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., a leader of the Blue Dog group. "So someone who earns $2 million a year would pay $5,000. ... They're not going to miss it."
It's called "incrementalism," and it's where those jackasses in Congress get things passed a little at a time. It's also called "class warfare" where they get "working people" to hate those evil, wicked, "rich" people in order to pass their agenda. "They're not going to miss it," eh? Who the hell are you to decide how much I will miss? What if Mr. Mike Ross thinks that somebody wouldn't "miss" $100,000? Does that make it OK for Mr. Mike Ross to just take it? I mean, that's only 10%, who would miss that? And for the poor schmuck making $2 million a year, it's only 5%! What a deal!

There's also this

Still, the development allows House Democrats to keep promises to adhere to pay-as-you-go budget rules that were a top campaign plank in 2006.
It would never occur to a Democrat to cut spending in another area in order to offset new spending. The knee-jerk reaction of a Democrat is to raise taxes on those evil "rich" people since, "they're not going to miss it." (In fairness, the knee-jerk reaction of Republicans seems to be to just not worry about where the money is going to come from for their new spending, which isn't any better from a fiscal perspective.)

Also notice that the $1 million limit is only for couples. If you're single, the tax would kick in at $500,000. That doesn't exactly sound "rich" to me.


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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image15:13 Twitter Updates for 2008-05-13» halostatue
@codinghorror Is it allegiance to the company or the people you like working with? # @alancfrancis it has to do with the signatures. some self-updates (including iTunes) don’t properly update the signatures. # Powered by Twitter Tools.
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image01:08 Off to Potsdam: Attending S3» chris blogs

Tomorrow I take the train to Potsdam to attend the Workshop on Self-sustaining Systems (S3), which means I get the chance of meeting rpg and many other people that worked on Lisp, Self and related cool stuff in real life.

The stuff I’m working on got not finished by far, but maybe I can write down enough on the train to explain it to interested parties.

If you want to hook up, don’t hesitate to contact me. I’m there until Saturday morning.

Anarchaia and chris blogs will resume publishing Sunday, May 18.

NP: Manu Chao—Politik Kills


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Tue 13 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image16:27 Twitter Updates for 2008-05-12» halostatue
Debugging # Powered by Twitter Tools.
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Mon 12 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image23:26 客户来了» 梦想风暴
敏捷软件开发中,与客户的沟通是一项必不可少的内容,因为只有客户才知道他们自己想要的是什么,只有他们才真正了解自己的业务流程。于是,在ThoughtWorks,客户来访是很常见的,这不,我们的客户今天就来了。

一大清早,客户就到了办公室,他们给我们做了一个关于项目的介绍,让我们有机会聆听一下真正使用这个系统的人究竟如何看待这个系统,他们为什么会有这样的业务流程,在他们看来,哪些东西才是最有价值的部分以及他们希望这个系统未来会在他们的工作中起到怎样的作用。虽然在这个项目也工作了一段时间,但我也只是知道有哪些东西,对于为什么是这样,完全没有概念。今天客户的到来算是给我们补上了欠缺的一课。

对于开发者而言,客户到来的作用很直接的体现在某些细节问题的确定上。通常,我们有了问题会问我们的BA(业务分析师),但BA不能给出答案的部分,就只能等待客户的回答了。原本因为时差的关系,一旦涉及到客户,这个过程至少需要一天。而如今客户就在身边,一旦我们有了问题,几乎瞬间就可以得到解决,开发周期大大的缩短。当然,客户不会一直在这里,所以,趁着客户在的这几天,我们要充分发掘他们的作用。

以前也曾经历过客户到来,但这次给我留下的印象却特别深刻。因为,客户让我们近距离的接触到他们的业务。

我们的项目是一个关于宾馆审计的项目,简而言之,有人制定标准,有人按照标准进行检查。虽然听起来很简单,但是系统里面的概念却离我们很远,很难想象究竟是什么样子的。今天,客户就带着我们亲身体验了一下做审计的感觉。

我们去的是客户旗下的一家五星级宾馆,宾馆的总经理带着我们在宾馆内部进行参观,过程之中,还为我们解释了很多真正的检查过程中会出现的问题,在这个过程中,一个个曾经因为写程序而听说过的名词不断的出现在耳边,那个曾经遥不可及的概念,一下子变得异常清晰。上午的讲解和晚上的参观让这个系统变得更加真实了。以前只是住过宾馆,还从来没有从其他角度想过问题。今天的参观,明显是抱着“找茬”的心理。顺便说一下,我们的“审计”还真起到了一定作用,有人在宾馆的游泳池边上的宣传牌上发现了错别字。

客户到来,还有一个很直接的好处,那就是,给了我们一次team building的机会。即便单从这个角度说,我们也总是欢迎客户来访的。^_^



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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image22:55 为四川地震的死难者默哀» Ruby 语言 思想驱动生活
今天下午突然发生的大地震,目前已经夺去了7000多人的生命。 也许这个数字还会增加,不知又有多少人流离失所。 希望我们的政府真的尽到人民公仆的义务,不要再拿老百姓不当人。 默哀!!!!!!!! ================================================= php.ini设置文件中: display_errors = On 打开在页面显示错误信息。 Fatal error: require() [function.require]: Failed opening required …
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image21:40 Lesser Evil?» Joey Gibson's Blog

I saw this bumper sticker yesterday and snorted Pepsi out my nose. I refuse to vote Democrat, and I can't stand John McCain, so who can I vote for? I don't know. Bob Barr has just announced that he's seeking the Libertarian Party presidential nomination, and the LP seems to have changed their position on immigration to something sane, so maybe the LP will be an option. Still investigating.

Go buy your own Cthulhu 2008 bumper sticker today.

And if you don't know who Cthulhu is, WikiPpedia is your friend.


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Sun 11 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image23:50 曼联夺冠» Ruby 语言 思想驱动生活
一边看一遍玩,竟然发现是英超最后一轮了。 曼联夺冠了。 昨天去踢球了,现在还是浑身疼痛,自行车都不能骑了。
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image17:10 Twitter Updates for 2008-05-10» halostatue
heading out to High Park in about half an hour # seriously pissed off. Wanted to go to High Park and walk around; came out to a flat tire in the car. Spent the afternoon at AG+R instead. # Powered by Twitter Tools.
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image02:57 Happy Camper Studios in eWeek» James Britt - Code, Content, Caffiene

David was on a panel at the recent JavaOne, and eWeek has a few quotes from him in an interesting article on the continued rise of the Ruby language.


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Sat 10 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image23:40 First Few Days with the GPS» Lovable Lyle
It was somewhat of an impulse buy, and one that’s a little difficult to justify considering how little we actually travel anywhere by car. But at lunch time last Tuesday, I gave in and bought a Garmin nüvi 200W. I was getting ready to head out of town for a few days and knew that I’d [...]
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image13:49 Twitter Updates for 2008-05-09» halostatue
off to Playdium in about five. # Powered by Twitter Tools.
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image13:49 Twitter Updates for 2008-05-09» halostatue
off to Playdium in about five. # Powered by Twitter Tools.
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image04:26 New Monkeybars Tutorials» James Britt - Code, Content, Caffiene

Hot on the heels of the 0.6 Monkeybars releases comes spiffy new tutorials.

Here’s what’s rockin’:

  • Installing: Part 1 – Getting Monkeybars, creating a new project
  • Installing: Part 2 – The contents of a generated Monkeybars project
  • Installing: Part 3 – Using the Monkeybars generator
  • Configuring Netbeans
  • Overview of Monkeybars

Catch Monkey Fever and start building kick-ass cross-platform GUI applications in Ruby!


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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image03:52 Creature Comforts – W...» Projectionist

Creature Comforts – What is Art?


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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image03:52 Make Avocado Toast» Projectionist

Tip Make Avocado Toast

1. Toast some bread. Good and crispy.
2. Cut an avocado in half—scoop out the goods, mush it with a fork and spread on the toast. One avocado should do for 3 slices.
3. Sprinkle with red pepper flakes.
4. Salt and Pepper.
5. Drizzle with Olive Oil.


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Fri 09 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image23:24 开发日记» Ruby 语言 思想驱动生活
决定自己做一个相册了,语言采用php,模板采用smarty。 今天开始用DBDesigner开始做db设计。 编辑器就用editplus了。 域名还没想好。 今天先想这么多,早点睡觉了。
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image16:26 Twitter Updates for 2008-05-08» halostatue
@mfeathers *snort* # building a slipstream XP install disc. # It looks like the sprint it going to be a raging success. # So Microsoft’s latest WinMob ad is "You can do more if your phone runs Windows." # Apple should counter the WinMob ad with with "You can do more when your phone doesn’t have to do Windows, [...]
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Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image06:07 Monkeybars Kicks Ass at JavaOne» James Britt - Code, Content, Caffiene

There was a Script Bowl contest at JavaOne , pitting Groovy, JRuby, Jython and Scala against each other in a set of application challenges.

Long story short: JRuby ruled .

The client application entry was a Monkeybars Twitter app. It won, of course

Note: edited to correct for idiotic use of SunOne instead of JavaOne.


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Thu 08 May, 2008

Click here to bookmark this link.Channel Image10:05 和dotyao的聊天» 动态感觉 静观其变
今天和小妖的一个对话,是关于南昌python user group的聚会,聊了一下聚会的形式和发展方向,随口说说,征得小妖的同意,我把这个对话放出来,不想有所改动,纯属随兴而致,同道分享之而已。

[09:04] archlinux+python: 这次几个人
[09:05] dotyao@gmail.com: 7
[09:05] dotyao@gmail.com: 7个人
[09:05] dotyao@gmail.com: 规模最大的一次。
[09:06] archlinux+python: 可惜我没有时间准备了
[09:06] archlinux+python: 我就带耳朵去了
[09:06] dotyao@gmail.com: 周六你也没时间啊
[09:06] archlinux+python: 这么短时间怎么准备
[09:07] archlinux+python: 至少要有心得,才能说说
[09:07] archlinux+python: 所以别弄的这么紧
[09:07] archlinux+python: 2个星期一次,哪有那么多心得
[09:07] dotyao@gmail.com: 恩,zensun提议的。。。。
[09:07] archlinux+python: 哈哈
[09:07] dotyao@gmail.com: 以后间隔是要大点,至少3-4周一次
[09:07] archlinux+python: 有心得才能说
[09:07] archlinux+python: 否则去了冷场
[09:08] archlinux+python: 反而不好
[09:09] dotyao@gmail.com: 那个学生会讲将plone,他最近用这个东西
[09:10] archlinux+python: 好是好
[09:10] archlinux+python: 但那个最多讲的是怎么用
[09:10] archlinux+python: 不会深入的
[09:11] archlinux+python: 我希望能有的是深入一点的代码开发之类,呵呵,别说我挑剔啊
[09:13] dotyao@gmail.com: 恩,这需要一步一步来
[09:13] dotyao@gmail.com: 关键是我们现在人少,大家都比较忙,没时间去共同做个小项目走代码
[09:13] dotyao@gmail.com: 有个3-5人,时间稍微宽裕。就能了
[09:15] archlinux+python: 有人会说说论坛助手的么
[09:16] dotyao@gmail.com: 就你一个人动手了。。。
[09:16] dotyao@gmail.com: 哎,这个东西本来是个好东西的,挺好玩也实用
[09:17] dotyao@gmail.com: 我有想法是,这次讲课的最后提下这个,让大家在接下来的3-4周尽量的尝试下这个,第一个项目,不想夭折
[09:17] dotyao@gmail.com: 找个这样的小东西,不容易
[09:17] dotyao@gmail.com: 不过如果只有你一个人写,那来的代码交流啊
[09:20] dotyao@gmail.com: 那本sql书到了,稍微看了下,非常不错
[09:20] dotyao@gmail.com: 很多东西豁然开朗
[09:21] dotyao@gmail.com: 这本书你一定要买一本,放在枕边,随时翻阅
[09:22] dotyao@gmail.com: 我感觉,我以前都不知道啥叫sql
[09:33] archlinux+python: 是呀
[09:33] archlinux+python: 我认为应该你主导这个方向
[09:33] dotyao@gmail.com: 啊?攻数据库?
[09:33] dotyao@gmail.com: 我数据库水平更差
[09:33] archlinux+python: 这样即使会有些人不适应,也无所谓,是这个特色
[09:34] archlinux+python: 我说的是思路
[09:34] archlinux+python: 不是sql
[09:34] archlinux+python: 这样就不会偏离python本源,它是一个设计的好东西
[09:34] archlinux+python: 不会流于使用而已
[09:35] dotyao@gmail.com: 恩。你说话挺哲理的
[09:35] archlinux+python: 北京如今聚会少了,估计就是这个原因
[09:35] archlinux+python: 他们并没有保持一个独立的特色
[09:36] archlinux+python: limodou他想这样导向,但是他的uilpad太大
[09:36] archlinux+python: 而且他不是组织者
[09:37] archlinux+python: 所以我想你有这个条件成为主导者
[09:37] archlinux+python: 这样对你公司和python, pyer都是一个很好的互动
[09:38] archlinux+python: 因为你要的是设计,不是单单的使用
[09:38] archlinux+python: 我喜欢的也是设计
[09:38] archlinux+python: 也就不会把python作为一个玩具语言了
[09:40] archlinux+python: 很多人一提py之类的,就觉得是脚本,没有java/c/c++的地位高,这是没有道理的,同样是设计,为何要如此的贬低动态之类的语言呢,同时php, ruby, erlang都能慢慢吸引
[09:40] archlinux+python: 过来
[09:41] archlinux+python: 所以我希望能从python长于应用,长于设计的角度来看待python user group
[09:41] archlinux+python: 这样的话,就能保持特色
[09:41] archlinux+python: 不怕人少,一旦有了基础,我相信人会多起来的
[09:43] archlinux+python: 允许别人把其他的技术带进来,比如ruby, perl, php之类的,当然就不要专制,独裁,要允许别人有不同的见解,形成一个良好的开源氛围
[09:43] archlinux+python: 有利于整个开源的宣传和普及
[09:43] archlinux+python: 所以我的想法是从设计切入
[09:44] archlinux+python: 这是对任何语言都适用的,就能吸引到更多的developer
[09:45] archlinux+python: 从而认识到python的本源和哲学
[09:46] dotyao@gmail.com: 允许我把你的话贴到邮件列表吗
[09:46] archlinux+python: 这到无所谓
[09:47] archlinux+python: 准确的说是我们两的对话
[09:47] archlinux+python: 不是我一个人的话
[09:47] archlinux+python: 没有互动我也说不出来...
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